Polish Breeders Club

I'd like to speculate a little and then see if veteran breeders think I'm way off base.  My Polish have never had Marek's disease, but I lost many nice silkies and d'uccles a few years ago, so last year I vaccinated all the feather-legged chicks.  Problem solved.  Then, this fall, I bought a pair of wc blacks from a top breeder.  They are now busy dying- in spite of all I can do- from what looks to be Marek's.  It occurs to me today that these 2 birds have stubs, which none of my line of Polish ever do.  Could birds from lines with stubs be more susceptible to Marek's?  What do you think?

Cynthia Smith, DVM at 12:12PM on Nov 28, 2009

I'd like to speculate a little and then see if veteran breeders think I'm way off base.  My Polish have never had Marek's disease, but I lost many nice silkies and d'uccles a few years ago, so last year I vaccinated all the feather-legged chicks.  Problem solved.  Then, this fall, I bought a pair of wc blacks from a top breeder.  They are now busy dying- in spite of all I can do- from what looks to be Marek's.  It occurs to me today that these 2 birds have stubs, which none of my line of Polish ever do.  Could birds from lines with stubs be more susceptible to Marek's?  What do you think?

Hello Cindy there are quite a few breeds that are Susceptible to Marek's Silkies are one Barnvelders are very bad to get it, not sure it has anything to do with feather legs, it may be more to do the the vitality of the birds.

Thanks Channing  

Hey Cindy!

It was nice getting a chance to meet you down in Tenn.

I have read a lot lately about Mereks and other diseases and I have a question for you. Once you start vaccinating for Mereks you have to continue with any hatch or new birds that come to your farm. Even if you think you have clean birds the vaccinated birds shed the disease and the new ones will get it. Did you vaccinate these Polish?

Crested Horizon Poultry at 07:46PM on Nov 28, 2009

Hey Cindy!

 

It was nice getting a chance to meet you down in Tenn.

 

I have read a lot lately about Mereks and other diseases and I have a question for you. Once you start vaccinating for Mereks you have to continue with any hatch or new birds that come to your farm. Even if you think you have clean birds the vaccinated birds shed the disease and the new ones will get it. Did you vaccinate these Polish?

No, I bought these as adults.  I already know I have Marek's on the place, so I figure vaccination can only help.  Next year I'll vaccinate all the birds instead of just the feather-legged chicks.  I think Channing's correct that individual birds have different susceptibility, so theoretically I should be glad I'm going to lose this boy before he can reproduce.  He was expensive and beautiful however, so I am deeply saddened.

Hi Cynthia,

 Nice to meet you at Tenn. show. You asked for opinions on feather legged or stubs being associated with Marek's. My opinion is that all birds are equally susceptible. It's not a major problem here in the southeast so I don't vaccinate againist it. It would be hard to do over a 4-5 month breeding season. Some years it shows up in one or two birds, I've had two white old english start the one legged limping thing in the last couple of years. I can remember a few years ago a couple of polish with the twisted neck thing but it didn't seem contagious and they shortly eliminated their genes (died). My belief is all chickens are exposed to and carry all kind of diseases and viruses that they have acquired immunity to. That's why they say to raise your young away from older birds until they gain strength to fend off diseases and build up natural

immunity. It probably depends on what region of the country you live as to what you actually need to go to the trouble and expense to vaccinate againist.  Here in the southeast LT  and Fowl Pox (mosquito related) are a major concern. Other places are different. Everyone just needs to harden themselves to the fact you will lose a bird occasionally and carry on with your breeding program to the best of you ability both physically and financially. I've lost a couple of my old breeders lately as it turned cold I quess from old age and really hated it but that's part of the game. We're glad to have a person like you that would travel as far as you did to show up in Tenn. in the club. We're all pulling for you to be a major force with the polish breed and the club in the future. Larry      

Larry Glenn at 09:57AM on Nov 29, 2009

Hi Cynthia,

 Nice to meet you at Tenn. show. You asked for opinions on feather legged or stubs being associated with Marek's. My opinion is that all birds are equally susceptible. It's not a major problem here in the southeast so I don't vaccinate againist it. It would be hard to do over a 4-5 month breeding season. Some years it shows up in one or two birds, I've had two white old english start the one legged limping thing in the last couple of years. I can remember a few years ago a couple of polish with the twisted neck thing but it didn't seem contagious and they shortly eliminated their genes (died). My belief is all chickens are exposed to and carry all kind of diseases and viruses that they have acquired immunity to. That's why they say to raise your young away from older birds until they gain strength to fend off diseases and build up natural

immunity. It probably depends on what region of the country you live as to what you actually need to go to the trouble and expense to vaccinate againist.  Here in the southeast LT  and Fowl Pox (mosquito related) are a major concern. Other places are different. Everyone just needs to harden themselves to the fact you will lose a bird occasionally and carry on with your breeding program to the best of you ability both physically and financially. I've lost a couple of my old breeders lately as it turned cold I quess from old age and really hated it but that's part of the game. We're glad to have a person like you that would travel as far as you did to show up in Tenn. in the club. We're all pulling for you to be a major force with the polish breed and the club in the future. Larry      

Thanks for the kind words and reassurance.  The reality of losing birds has been the hardest thing for me in this hobby.  I guess I'll eventually develop a tougher skin.  Right now I still feel like I should be able to save everything.  I'm glad that I went to Tennessee.  It's great to be able to put a face with all of you when I read your on-line comments.  This forum is a marvelous resource.

Larry Glenn at 09:57AM on Nov 29, 2009

Hi Cynthia,

 Nice to meet you at Tenn. show. You asked for opinions on feather legged or stubs being associated with Marek's. My opinion is that all birds are equally susceptible. It's not a major problem here in the southeast so I don't vaccinate againist it. It would be hard to do over a 4-5 month breeding season. Some years it shows up in one or two birds, I've had two white old english start the one legged limping thing in the last couple of years. I can remember a few years ago a couple of polish with the twisted neck thing but it didn't seem contagious and they shortly eliminated their genes (died). My belief is all chickens are exposed to and carry all kind of diseases and viruses that they have acquired immunity to. That's why they say to raise your young away from older birds until they gain strength to fend off diseases and build up natural

immunity. It probably depends on what region of the country you live as to what you actually need to go to the trouble and expense to vaccinate againist.  Here in the southeast LT  and Fowl Pox (mosquito related) are a major concern. Other places are different. Everyone just needs to harden themselves to the fact you will lose a bird occasionally and carry on with your breeding program to the best of you ability both physically and financially. I've lost a couple of my old breeders lately as it turned cold I quess from old age and really hated it but that's part of the game. We're glad to have a person like you that would travel as far as you did to show up in Tenn. in the club. We're all pulling for you to be a major force with the polish breed and the club in the future. Larry      

Thanks for the kind words and reassurance.  The reality of losing birds has been the hardest thing for me in this hobby.  I guess I'll eventually develop a tougher skin.  Right now I still feel like I should be able to save everything.  I'm glad that I went to Tennessee.  It's great to be able to put a face with all of you when I read your on-line comments.  This forum is a marvelous resource.

Cynthia Smith, DVM at 01:40PM on Nov 29, 2009

Larry Glenn at 09:57AM on Nov 29, 2009

Hi Cynthia,

 Nice to meet you at Tenn. show. You asked for opinions on feather legged or stubs being associated with Marek's. My opinion is that all birds are equally susceptible. It's not a major problem here in the southeast so I don't vaccinate againist it. It would be hard to do over a 4-5 month breeding season. Some years it shows up in one or two birds, I've had two white old english start the one legged limping thing in the last couple of years. I can remember a few years ago a couple of polish with the twisted neck thing but it didn't seem contagious and they shortly eliminated their genes (died). My belief is all chickens are exposed to and carry all kind of diseases and viruses that they have acquired immunity to. That's why they say to raise your young away from older birds until they gain strength to fend off diseases and build up natural

immunity. It probably depends on what region of the country you live as to what you actually need to go to the trouble and expense to vaccinate againist.  Here in the southeast LT  and Fowl Pox (mosquito related) are a major concern. Other places are different. Everyone just needs to harden themselves to the fact you will lose a bird occasionally and carry on with your breeding program to the best of you ability both physically and financially. I've lost a couple of my old breeders lately as it turned cold I quess from old age and really hated it but that's part of the game. We're glad to have a person like you that would travel as far as you did to show up in Tenn. in the club. We're all pulling for you to be a major force with the polish breed and the club in the future. Larry      

Thanks for the kind words and reassurance.  The reality of losing birds has been the hardest thing for me in this hobby.  I guess I'll eventually develop a tougher skin.  Right now I still feel like I should be able to save everything.  I'm glad that I went to Tennessee.  It's great to be able to put a face with all of you when I read your on-line comments.  This forum is a marvelous resource.

Hello Cindy it will get easier to do in time, but just remember it is for the betterment of the breed. I love working with people like yourself it makes this hobby one of the best. hang in there and I am sure you will do very well.

Thanks Channing 

Yes Larry.  I agree with you .  I just left a not e on "For Sale" listing about my SL polish passing. 

He was fine .  He suddenly started to shows passiveness.  Then started to stand with his head sort of set down in hs body.  I separated him by himself in a small cage .  He ate and drank showed no sign of respiratroy illness. Then the weakness in the legs started & bit by bit he became paralyzed.   He was so beautiful.  I'll send pics of him.

The rest of my flock which are only (6) are fine.  I took my Silkie cockerel to the show in Ventura, Calif.  He's been totaly fine. 

I think each bird  has a different immune system.  Some will never get it.  Im a little leary about taking my birds to shows now.  I believe stress is a major invitation for Mereks.

Are there maybe anay vitamins to give them to boost their immune system?

Sandy

I have been vaccinating my chicks for Mareks disease for years and have had no problems whatsoever with bringing in unvaccinated adult birds. The birds are usually infected at a very young age and either develop or don't develop the disease.

I have had no Mareks at  all since starting vaccination.

I also believe what is being referred to as the twisted neck thing is not Marek's but Cerebral Hernia which can be a problem in crested breeds.

I think Im going to start vaccinating then.  I have lost 4 or 5 polish to this.  My Brahmas, and silkies are fine.  It almost came to the point that I gave up raising them because of this and thought that polish are just too difficult.   I'll have to find out more about this erebral Hernia.  Should I just google it?

Sandy at 11:05AM on Feb 25, 2010

I think Im going to start vaccinating then.  I have lost 4 or 5 polish to this.  My Brahmas, and silkies are fine.  It almost came to the point that I gave up raising them because of this and thought that polish are just too difficult.   I'll have to find out more about this erebral Hernia.  Should I just google it?

Here is a good article

Cerebral Hernia By Peter Jones

Breeders of fowls the world over has reported a condition that seems peculiar to crested breeds, particularly birds with heavier crests than others. The onset of the condition is described as a wobble in the head which can increase in severity to the point where the head twists right around and that bird in some cases loses its balance and mobility altogether. This is commonly called 'cerebral hernia'. The Victorian Institute of Animal Science has conducted post mortems on breeds such a polish and silkies over the years and confirms the existence of a mutation connected with the gene for a dominant crest. A mutation is a genetic copying error or mistake that occurs when the DNA from the parent bird's meet and divide incorrectly in what is known as meiosis. The skull of a crested fowl is unique. Unlike other breeds, it is dome like in structure and in heavily crested chicks; there is a tendency for the skull to be underdeveloped. Like the fontanelles of a human baby, the skull of crested fowls has openings. These are supposed to fuse in the normal way and usually do. However, this does not always occur and the result is exposure of the cerebellum (brain). Subsequently, a bird's brain space remains venerable to the environment. Certain bloodlines seem more predisposed to this condition, whereas other are seldom affected. Unsurprisingly, it is rare in adult birds, as their skulls have had the time to grow and fuse over. It is more prevalent with young birds between 1 and 4 months of age.

Conditions observed and possible causal factors.

There are a variety of causal factors and distinct conditions each of which can display the symptoms described above.

Type one.

Cerebral trauma or brain damage can actually happen to any young bird of any breed. It involves direct impact (i.e. a peck on the head) resulting in brain damage. Crested breeds could fare worse in such a situation. The brain is forced by the pressure of the impact and can 'herniated', swell or ooze out through the cranium.

Type two

Cerebral oedema or swelling of the cerebellum is an internal reaction to the environment and can occur in at least two ways. Firstly, as a response to hot weather and change, an excess of fluid builds up as in the brain cavity, placing pressure on the centers of the brain, which govern mobility. The bird experiences vertigo (spinning sensation) and consequently loses its sense of balance. They are sometimes observed constantly backing up while in a crouched position and with their head shaking back & forth. If left untreated this can lead to permanent brain damage. On occasion birds may recover and live with a permanent, but slight head wobble, continuing to eat and live with certain normality. Secondly, same symptoms can occur with a respiratory condition. The immune system can respond to the invasion of bacteria or a virus by producing more fluid with similar results.

Treatment

A) Prevention is better than cure. By ensuring that your birds are vaccinated and well managed the breeder can keep disease challenge to a minimum and avoid the third scenario. Identifying bloodlines that have this propensity and breeding away will help avoid heartbreak. Controlling temperature in extremes of weather can prevent this condition to some degree and ensuring that no foreign objects pose a threat to the birds' welfare (i.e. checking perches, feeders etc are secure are all good preventative measures).

B) Cure - there is no guaranteed cure if you have a bird with the condition. However, a vet friend administered an intramuscularly injection of cortisone with positive results. In this case the drug reduced the inflammation/swelling and the bird recovered.

Other breeders have found that administering broad -based antibiotics have worked. The problem is that without a postmortem, you cant always isolates the cause. By then it is probably too late anyway. At the earliest detection of the condition I would use both cortisone and Baytril (antibiotic) to cover my bases. The longer a bird is left untreated, the harder it is to achieve recovery. Fortunately, the problem is not common. Edan Montgomery claimed that out of over 600 birds bred last year, about 5-6 developed the condition. Sadly, it is usually the heavily crested 'potential champs'.By hatching in large numbers, line breeding rather than close in breeding and practicing good management techniques, this condition is largely avoidable. Every breed has its hiccups. For crested breeds, this is one of them. On a positive note, the rewards of producing a champion far outweigh the occasional disappointment linked with this condition. It also goes to show the largely detrimental nature of mutations. They are rarely if ever an advantage!

Hi Everyone,,

My silkie roo I mentioned previously on this topic that I took to the Ventura show has just died of Mereks.   Actually, I had hm put down instead of seeing him suffer.   I don't get it.  He was almost 1 1/2 years old and always healthy.  It just hit him.

He did give me some nice chicks though from my splash female that are now hatching.  So, that means a month and a half ago he mated with my female.  Does that mean the chicks ar certain to get Mereks?  They are still in the brooder.  I need to vacc. them....... right?

Sandy

After a call to Channing then visit to vet who actually bred/raised polish 35 years ago the verdict on my blue cockeral was most likely Mareks:(  Had him put down though no opportunity to get him necropsy.  But like most on this thread now question is to vaccinate everyone on the place, or maybe just the 2 pullets he was with, or throw caution to the wind...

And you are certainly not the only one to get attached to the feathered buggers!  We have a poultry cemetary, of all things.  Even vet said "You sure walk a fine line between pet and livestock with these guys, don't you?"   Uh, ya think?!?!

morganschicks at August 10, 2010 at 12:55 PM

After a call to Channing then visit to vet who actually bred/raised polish 35 years ago the verdict on my blue cockeral was most likely Mareks:(  Had him put down though no opportunity to get him necropsy.  But like most on this thread now question is to vaccinate everyone on the place, or maybe just the 2 pullets he was with, or throw caution to the wind...

And you are certainly not the only one to get attached to the feathered buggers!  We have a poultry cemetary, of all things.  Even vet said "You sure walk a fine line between pet and livestock with these guys, don't you?"   Uh, ya think?!?!

I wrote an article on my experiences with vaccination- should be out with the newsletter. ( I hope I haven't missed the newsletter.  If it has already come out and I haven't seen it, somebody tell me, please.)

When I asked about Marek's, which most of us think is a once at birth vaccination, my vet said this is not really true; commercial breeders (for whom most of the vaccine is made/sold, assume they will have a bird for only one year. In other words, Marek's is not prevented by a single vaccination at birth.  Hm.

I had one cock that developed the bent (not twisted) neck at three years of age -- however, he was able to jump on his perch, obtain food and water without problems. I kept him with the idea of preserving his genes with AI, then realized that if Marek's is hereditary, that would not be smart. So what's the answer -- is Marek's passed on to offspring?

thanks,

MAREKS DISEASE

By: Peter J. Brown, First State Veterinary Supply, Inc.

Actually they are one in the same. Range Paralysis is an older term that was used before it was understood exactly what caused this disease. Birds that were ranged on open range and became lame were said to have Range Paralysis. Today the modern term for this disease is Mareks Disease. Mareks,was first described in 1907 by Dr. Marek who was a Hungarian researcher. Thus the name Mareks disease. So,just what is Mareks Disease ? It is a highly contaigous Avian Herpes Virus that is highly Cell Associated. This means that the Virus must be inside a Cell of the bird in order to spread. Mareks Disease must be differentiated between Avian Leukosis Complex,which is made up of three separate diseases. Those Diseases are,Mareks Disease,Lymphoid Leukosis and Reticuloendotheliosis Virus. The last two diseases are caused by Retroviruses and Reticuloendotheliosis Virus is rare in Poultry. What Mareks Disease really boils down to is Chicken Cancer. It is a virus that causes skin lesions as well as lesions of the Visceral ( gut ) organs. It is a Tumor forming Virus.

How does Mareks Disease spread ? The mechanism by which Mareks Disease spreads from bird to bird is quite complicated. So,I will tell you that it spreads through the infected birds feather follicles and is in the dander that comes from the birds feathers. The spread to other tissues in the birds body can onlty take place through the blood stream. The virus must infect white blood cells and travel about inside them in order to infect other tissues. The Mareks Disease virus is related to the Epstein-Barr virus that causes Hodgkins disease in humans. However the Mareks Disease virus poses no threat as it is incapable of growing in mammalian cells.

So what organs are affected by the Mareks Virus ? Generally the virus will attack the nervous systemas well as other body organs such as the eye. You may see a crippiling of the birds or a discoloration of the iris in the eye. The virulence ( strength ) of the particular virus affecting your birds will usually determine the severity of the disease. The discoloration in the iris of the eye has led to the term Gray Eye. You may only see a reddening of the tissue around the feather follicle,this tissue may be raised around the base of the feather shaft and is generally called skin Leukosis but it is actually caused by Mareks Disease. The spread of the virus to the periphial nerves usually results in the enlargement of the nerves which will eventually lead to paralysis of the affected limb or organ. The spread of the virus to the birds eye may result in blindness as well as depigmentation of the iris of the eye.

Can older birds be vaccinated for Mareks Disease ? The answer to this question is ,yes. The age of the bird really does not matter as long as the bird has not been exposed to the Mareks Virus prior to vaccination. If a bird that has not been vaccinated for Mareks Disease comes down with the obvious symptoms of Mareks it may be of value to vaccinate anyway. There is some research to show that some birds may recover after vaccination. This would possibly work on birds whether or not they were vaccinated before. Some research has suggested that re-vaccination 4 to 6 weeks after the initial vaccination was of value in preventing new cases of Mareks disease in high risk areas. It is important to keep in mind that birds that have been infected are shedding this virus at a very heavy rate from their follicles and it would be of value to keep feathers about your coop cleaned up. Regular spraying with oxine will go a long way in keeping this disease as well as other diseases under control. Concerning the use of bleach as a disinfectant: go ahead and use it if you so desire but be aware that to my knowledge there are no studies to show the effectiveness of bleach against any disease organism. Oxine has reams of test data against a wide range of Pathogens and is designed to be used specifically for disinfection purposes. Consider this: during the anthrax scare of a few years ago, The Hart Senate Office Building in Washington,D.C. was heavily contaminated with Anthrax. The disinfectant of choice (although it was used in its Gaseous Form) was Oxine. I don’t recall them using bleach as an alternative. Remember that you get what you pay for . My Dad once told me that if you want good clean quality Oats that they come at a price,and that if you want the Oats after they come through the horse they come a bit cheaper. Nuf said.

I thought it would be of value to walk you through the Mareks Disease infection from start to finish from the birds perspective. This way you might get a better understanding of just what is going on during an active outbreak of the disease. Infection usually takes place as the birds inhale the Mareks Virus and it sets up shop in the respiratory system. Witnin five days the Mareks Virus will invade White blood Cells in the Respiratory System and be carried to the Spleen,Bursa and the Thymus. The Virus likes to grow in White Blood Cells and starts growing in B-cells and starts to infect and kill off B-cells in the Spleen,Bursa and the Thymus. The Mareks virus is now killing so many B-cells that the Immune System begins to react to the Virus Infection. Many T-cells are generated by the Immune response. These activated T-cells can be susceptible to a latent infection by the Mareks Virus. These infected T-cells may eventually become active Mareks Disease Tumor Cells. The Immune System mounts a measurable Antibody response but a temporary Immune Suppression also occurs as well. Keep in mind that all of this is taking place in a very short period of time. Usually within one weeks time. The Virus now spreads throughout the blood stream through the infected White Blood Cells. The Mareks Virus will spread to various other organs at this time as well as the feather follicle epithelial ( surface ) cells where the Virus will divide and form cell free extremely infectious Virus Particles. The birds then shed the Virus from their bodies in the form of dander. This dander is highly infective and when susceptible birds breathe in the Virus particles contained in the dander,infection will take place as earlier described. Within two weeks post infection a permanent Immune Suppression takes place that affects both the B-cells and the T-cells. Approximately five weeks after infection takes place the Mareks Virus has sufficiently infiltrated vital organs and nerves that paralysis soon occurs. Birds may become listless and show a paralysis of one wing or drag a leg behind them. Some birds may only show a weakness of the legs or both wings. Starting at about six weeks post infection birds will start to form Tumors due to the infected T-cells starting to multiply and are now transformed into Cancer Cells. They are also responsible for Atherosclerosis or Hardening of the Arteries. Tumors may affect any of the organs of the body and the degree of Tumor formation will depend upon the Virulence (strength) of the infecting Virus.

Vaccinating for Mareks with the Mareks vaccine : Vaccination should take place as close to one day of age if at all possible,but may be done at any age as earlier discussed. Mareks vaccine is unique in that it does not stop a bird from becoming infected with the virus,but it stops the formation of the Tumors that are caused by the Mareks virus. Birds that are newly vaccinated should not be exposed to adult birds for at least fourteen days to allow the vaccine to take hold. The vaccine comes as a two part vaccine. One bottle contains a small freeze dried wafer which is the actual vaccine. This is a Live Virus vaccine and can not be saved once it is mixed. Once mixed the life of the vaccine is approximately two to two and one half hours. The second part of the vaccine is a bottle of diluent which is 200 cc/ml of extender. It is not just water but a broth so to speak of special growth media for the Vaccine Virus to survive on during mixing and vaccination. I would suggest to you that you split the vaccine into four equal parts so that you may get four uses out of one bottle of vaccine. Cut the small vaccine wafer into quarters as best as you can.Use care not to contaminate the Mareks Diluent. Never actually open the bottle but use a clean needle and work through the rubber stopper and draw what you need from that. Always check the Diluent bottle for contamination before using: cloudiness or something growing in the bottle. If the Diluent is contaminated or you are unsure discard the bottle and get a fresh bottle of Diluent before proceeding. Take the large Diluent bottle and transfer 50 cc/ml into a clean baby food jar or similar glass bottle. This bottle must be glass. Now take the 1/4 vaccine wafer and mix with the 50 cc/ml of Diluent in the baby food jar and you are ready to vaccinate. Remember to immediately put the remaining Diluent and the small bottle of Vaccine back in the refrigerator. You are now ready to administer the Vaccine. The dose is .2 cc 2/10 cc under the skin of the neck of each bird.Remember to keep track of time so that you don’t use Vaccine that is to old. Putting the mixed vaccine bottle in an ice bath will have some value in preserving the life of the mixed vaccine.

MIXED VACCINE CAN NOT BE SAVED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES EVEN IF YOU FREEZE IT.

If you have any question about this article or any other health issue, please feel free to contact Peter Brown at 1-800-950-8387.

This thread and its contents are the property of Peter Brown and firststatevetsupply.com. Please do not link to this article from another site without posting full credits to both firststatevetsupply.com and the Author, Peter Brown.

Great read Thanks