Polish Breeders Club

Having a tough time trying to figure out our birds, if they are good, bad, or indifferent.  Typically daughter & I are the only ones showing polish standards in open & jr shows, and every so often we run into someone showing polish bantams.  We also generally take the same birds.  However, the placings are all over the  map on our birds.  Had some input at Frankfort show (Thanks Kathy!) but even one of the judges there who I actually caught & picked brain, though he was not the one who judged them, was not quite sure on a couple of things (that really makes one feel odd, let me tell you).  His reply was "Polish just don't show well." 

The judges flee immediately following the shows.  Would it be crazy to put a sign on the cage under the card saying "PLEASE make some comments as to why you placed this bird where you did!!" 

We understand that a feather gets dropped, or some weight gain or loss can happen between shows but the fluctuation in placings are crazy.  One gets Champion Large Fowl one week, the next doesn't place at all (same group & number of birds). 

And do standard roosters/cockerals just not do well  compared to the hens/pullets?  WC Black cockeral has gotten RV twice, but the buff & gold--zilch. 

If anyone is taking a vacation to Nashville please swing by my place/let me know.  We're needing some good, serious, expert input on the birds is what I am trying to say.  How can we consider breeding and continued showing with no consistency in judging at the very least?  We recieve many compliments but when they come from folks who don't know Polish I take it w/a grain of salt (no offense but I see birds of other breeds I think are great and the owner says "Meh, it's ok...").

I am with you on wanting the comments please, but don't think it would go over too well to post a note...

If you can't wrangle the judge put the collar on his/her clerk. They are privy to all sorts of muttering that judges do and may be helpful.

Also its worth it to tell the clerk at a lunch break or speak to the show chairman and ask to be introduced to the judge when he/she is finished to ask a question.

A very good thing to do is print out a copy of the APA standard for each variety you have and sit out in the barn comparing your own birds to it and then to each other.  You should evaluate each bird's condition when you wash them for each show and note any anomalies like a lost feather, scabby wattle or rough condition of feathers. Things like that can change placings from week to week even day to day.  

You also have to take into consideration some judges have preferences and dislikes which will make their evaluations differ from each others while still being with in the Standard.

There is room for this in both condition and breed character.

Thanx Blackstar:)

We do the condition check when washing, though mostly the takers/leavers are determined prior to bathing.

Good idea about the clerk wrangling...hadn't thought of that possibility.

And our standards book is well worn, believe me.  Daughter takes it  to all the shows and evaluates how the judges did.  I've seen this kid run to the truck, get the book and show me what the judge missed/overlooked on other breeds and ours. 

It's just weird to explain some things however.  Take our last few shows  for example: 

WC black cockeral, who lost out previous show to WCB cockerel who was missing half his top feathers, not washed, etc.  (the only thing we could come up w/was our guy's tail does sit high); this time gets RV (out of 5 birds).

Pullet who got jr. champ cont, WCB, has little spurs.  Daughter wanted to take her just cause...the kid is weird.  Anyway, this pullet also has slight split in crest, and really doesn't hold tail well at all.  The other pullets--one was large fowl champ 3 shows ago, another won champ cont. in both open & junior shows prior to this one.  Huh??  I mean some serious flaws per standards seem to be overlooked.  It's as though standards are almost ignored in some cases.  Is it  possible, and perhaps I'm going to step on some toes here but I have to ask, that because I live in an OEGB region the judges aren't quite privy on polish standards and are making good guesses?  Honestly, I know that to know all the standards on every breed & variety would be near impossible but is there something (pride?) that prevents them from carrying a standards book w/them while judging? 

Now there have been a couple of times when I was able to catch judge but it felt as though they were appeasing me, patting me on the head, being nice not to hurt feelings or something.  I'd rather have someone say "You're bird is crap.  Cull it" rather than "Oh, it just has a little thing I didn't like."  That does me no good.

I have a lot of respect for our licensed judges. I believe most of them do their very best to judge birds fairly

I have yet to meet a judge that didn't bring his "Standard" with him In fact I have clerked for many judges that drag it from row to row in case they need it to reference a point.

Clerking is a wonderful way to learn how the judging process works, its a real eye opener.

I can't defend or oppose the placings the judges gave your birds, its hard to see what they feel when they judge.  Everyone sometimes doesn't agree with the way things are but as I always say. "We are paying for this judges opinion today and thats what we are getting."

I would again suggest talking to the judges themselves and as I said enlist the clerk or the show chairman to get that accomplished. Then you will know what they are seeing.

I've only got to clerk one time and it was really interesting, I thorougly enjoyed the experience and was overwhelmed by what I learned.  Unfortunately the opportunity does not arise much:(

I hear you on "paying the judges."  I prehaps came across wrong; I respect the judges opinion, I just long to know why they had the opinon they did...if that makes sense. 

I've seen only one judge carrying the book and he was a  younger fellow. 

Thanks again for your insight/input.  It is helpful.

Just got back from a show tonight and wanted to add my 2 cents. After seven years of talking with many judges out here on the west coast plus lots of visiting judges this is my conclusion...so far. (By the way, I value a judges overall opinion because they've usually/hopefully judged on the east and west coasts and everywhere in between and have seen birds "built" differently in different parts of the country.) I believe each of us should be breeding to the description (not necessarily the artists rendering) set forth in the Standard of Perfection. That is what club and committee members (breed clubs and the APA/ABA) have spent hours upon hours deciding what each breed and variety should look like. That in mind, there are always going to be traits that, for whatever reason, are tweeked by some breeders, i.e. bigger, longer, etc. Some of these traits pass within several years while others seem to become an unwritten standard. Now, each judge will always have their favorite and least favorite breeds, breeds they know alot about and those they've seen but a few times. Their job is to give their opinion as to how close your bird comes to the Standard and how much better or worse is it than the one next to it. Now, like it or not, their opinion is jaded by their personal preferences and possibly that "unwritten standard" generally accepted across the US. Compound that with how your bird happens to be acting the moment it's being judged. Is it showy or is it tired and droopy or stressed and sitting in the corner? Neither of which give the judge an opportunity to give high scores, even if strutting around in its own pen it would beat the feathers off all the others. Some times it's just plain bad timing. I tell all of my 4-H'ers "Don't cull a bird based on one or two shows. Wait for four or five opinions. Each show is that particular judges interpretation of the Standard on that particular day at that particular time while looking at that particular bird and how that particular bird is showing itself." If you aren't able to talk to that judge ask one of the others or the clerk or talk with other experienced breeders. They may not agree with your placing but they can give their own opinion. Keep in mind...you are asking for one-on-one time so make it count! Learn your Standard so you are able to talk fairly intelligently and ask pointed questions, i.e. Is this shade of blue too light? Is my birds' crest a little or alot too small? Is the lacing too thick? How can I improve these traits? Sometimes they'll have answers, sometimes they'll give you the name of a well-respected breeder to contact, sometimes they'll open up the Standard and read you what it says. In any case, ALWAYS thank them. They have taken time away from whatever else they were doing to help you. That's worth a whole season of entry fees on a poor quality bird. After all that, take those opinions and your opinions and weigh out the good, the bad and the ugly. Decide if it's best to keep showing that bird or find it a new home and fill your coop with the best you can get from reputable breeders. Only you can make that decison. (I choose the latter. It costs just as much to feed a poor quality bird as it does to feed a good quality bird....and I've only got so much feed to go around.) I say buy the best you can and give them the best care you can. Learn about them, show them, enjoy them and you just might have a whole lot of fun in the meantime!

OK, maybe that's more like a dollar fifty's worth of opinion! Boy, talk about value for your penny!     Polish Power!   Sherry

Thanx Sherry!!!

I "think" we finally have the "show birds" narrowed down, just as the season as coming to a close for us, at least til March 2011.

What does "good type" mean exactly?  Judge scribbled that on nb buff last show, placed it 2nd.  My guess is lacing and while I tried to catch judge he ran like the wind after the OE placings were done (perhaps he was scared!  HA HA  Those OE folks are soooo serious, I just love to watch them.)

Good for you having a bird with good type! The phrase "good type" refers to the body structure (confirmation) of the bird. The bird conforms to the description in the Standard-width, length and angle of back, depth of breast, leg position, tail angle, etc. It has nothing to do with color or lacing. Good news is now that you have good type you can work on color. If it's a female you can breed her to a male with good color but maybe not great type. Of course, having a male with good type as well is always a bonus. Usually, females provide the type and males provide the color but of course that's "usually" not "always" and sometimes it's "sometimes". Take a good look at your bird so you know what to look for in your offspring. Take pictures if you want, compare your bird to the Standard, compare it to the other birds at the show and note the differences and the placings. As always, compile the results of several shows to get a real good idea of what you have.